Why imation CDR (48x spindle) burn at 16x max?

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tacos40

New member
Master was right at the beginning of this thread: old Acer/Benq CDRW
drives are hard to change [firmware...]. Hardware commands over
software [Nero] in this case.

For a while I will keep this drive; meanwhile I will try Fujifilm
CDR's given the reputation a have seen in the web. Of course, for
my valuable data, Verbatim Pastel Disc (Taiyo Yuden) are OK.

Memorex I own are amazingly hard to break: You can bend them so
opposite sides almost touch each other and ... they do NOT break !!
Curiously, Platinum (same Ritek manufacturer) are relatively easy
to break. The facts are the facts. Make your own conclusions...
 
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LTR12101B

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Fujifilm can be one of two, if it gives the place of manufacture, thay may separate them:

Japan = TY (and Buy, BUY, BUY - especially if the price is good)
Taiwan = Prodisc (and Ritek also found)

So if Fujifilm media says "made in Japan", it SHOULD be the good stuff!
 
serjer

serjer

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the best cdrs i found till now were hp cdrs,those which were blue -white colored on surface.. those old cdrs even very 'scratched' compared with those of nowadays r still well being read compared with 'nowadays' which can't be read & r only useful to put my cups on them(ie true coaster roles:p) :D:D
 
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scarecrow

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serjer said:
the best cdrs i found till now were hp cdrs,those which were blue -white colored on surface...
Click to expand...
FYI those CD's were Mitsui SG, stamped by HP. Can still be found (as Mitsui) for reasonable prices, although I prefer the gold dye and not the silver dye variation. More or less on par with Taiyo Yuden, but generally standalone CD players prefer the short strategy phtalycyanine silver or golden dyed media instead of the long strategy Taiyo Yuden AZO's. The latter are considered much more fault tolerant for general data storage.
 
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tacos40

New member
I'm gonna check right now. My drive is ...2410A; dont know what the ...P' would mean. I hope it could be a slight difference. I found there 1 month ago a firmware for my DVD-ROM drive (LG), but that's another story.

About the CDR's: effectively, as a 'rule of thumb' a blue bottom CDR is probably a good one, regarding all I have read (for example, http://www.cdmediaworld.com). Certainly, my Verbatim (TY) Pastel Disc CDR's are transparent-blue on the bottom side. Curiously they can be only bought in a Food Store famous by low prices but good quality products; tipically they have only a couple of shelves for non-food or soap-like articles. If I remmember correctly, these Verbatim (TY) CDR's are sold in a package of 10 narrow slim box by around 6 euros (approx $7,5).
 
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tacos40

New member
Source: http://www.cdmediaworld.com (CD-R analysis). I have read something about Scarecrow comment, i.e., something like blue ones are good for short term (lets say 10 years storage) bu not long term (lets say 50-100 years). But the article I read seems to be about 3 years old. Technology & competition advance/change too much in that period of time...
 
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tacos40

New member
Master:

I have not found the firmware you suggest at http://forum.rpc1.org/portal.php
Can you give me an additional tip about what you know or remember about that?

The latest firmware I have found is at benq.co.uk site, and it is named 'pqj.zip' (version P.QJ) dated 2002-09-30. My drive is Acer/Benq CRW 2410A.

Thank you again,
 
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LTR12101B

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http://forum.rpc1.org/dl_firmware.php?download_id=457
Seems to tie up with the one you found - what version does it have now, as the style of the version will NEVER change with an update - if the previous version is not P._J - in the same format, then it is definitely wring - a matched format of version number does not guarantee that it's RIGHT, but a mismatch in the format is pretty damn certain that it's WRONG - unless deliberatly cross-flashing when you know it's possible.

If they have that as a 2003 update, then they were a little late spotting it!
 
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tacos40

New member
P.QJ seems to be the latest firmware. So I assume I cannot change my old loved burner. Probably, next time I'm gonna buy some DVD+/-R burner [hope they are CDR/RW burners too ?], on the line of LiteOn, given the reputation they have gained.

Kepeing track of the original matter of this thread [CDR quality & manufacturers] a colleague remind me that some '16x labeled Imation CDRs' [a bit old] he gave me, were burned at 24x in my Acer/Benq drive!! And currently '48x labeled Imation CDRs' I recently purchased, can only be burned at 16x !!

Probably those old 16x Imation CDR's are NOT 'Moser Baer India Limited'; I wanted to know but I do not have a handy CDRW drive to read the ATIP [I'm now at my job place]. These old CDRs are 'made in Taiwan'. Could be Taiyo Yuden ?? The color at the botton is transparent light-green.
 
Seb

Seb

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When its written that a cd can burn @ 48x max, it doesnt mean it will burn @ 16x full speed. Normally the ATIP stores the various speed @ which a cd can be burnt. For instance, the ATIP in your imation from india may have 48x max but also other (32,16,8,4) speeds at which it can be burnt. The fact that it doesn't contain 24x may suggest why it would burn at a lower speed, 16x in your case.This is only an issue with cheap medias.
Please correct me if am wrong.
 
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tacos40

New member
Very, very, very interesting point, the discrete speeds you suggest 4, 8, 16, 32, 48 possibly contained in the ATIP info. It has been one of the very first things I thought but searching at the web I have seen nothing about that (well, maybe I have not seen the right sites or forums, of course). But I am in favor of that point of view :)

I have no remote idea what could be the technical reason for that limitation, i.e. Why a CDR can be wriiten at 32x or 48x, but NOT at 24x ??? Maybe a limitation of the ATIP fields size themselves [some old standard], so only 4 values can be 'printed/recorded' by manufacturer ??? Thhis would be a ridiculous consequence [nowadays] of some old standard, i.e., the CDR itself could be written at 24x, but those discrete ATIP speeds command [some old] burners to refrain from doing it.

Thank you for your input, Seb!
 
Seb

Seb

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I think its only a cheap media limitation, esp from MBI.
Trust me, i had 1 and today its a frisbee :D
I don't know why they didn't include the 24x in the ATIP, but the fact that they left it out is the most plausible answer.
My .02$
 
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tacos40

New member
Well, these old 16x labeled Imation CDR's I could burn at 24x .... are silver top.

I want to make a kind of final comment / 'rule of thumb' about all this particular investigation...

(a) 'Brands' [Verbatim, Platinum, Imation, Fujifilm, Philips, Sony, TDK, etc, etc] are the visible/printed names we can read on CDR top and/or box. Each name holds a historical reputation [depending on the case: 'very good', only 'good', 'medium', etc] and they try to make benefits of that reputation; sometimes they 'risk' that reputation, other times they meke efforts to recover it.

(b) 'Brands' agree with different factories (Taiyo Yuden, CMC Magnetics, Ritek, MBI, etc, not too many as 'brands') who are the real 'manufacturers' of their CDR's. Lets say agreements change year to year, so you see, for example, that a particular brand agreed with one or several relatively good manufacturers 2 years ago, but nowadays you see the same brand agrees with other not so good manufacturers [profit is the final target, of course]. This decision is a risk, because brand reputation can be dereriorated. It's a matter of statistical results: some guys become aware of the trick and they buy more carefully; the big majority keep believing int the brand reputation.

(c) A particular factory manufacture different qualities, i.e., depending upon the particular 'brand' requirements and quality control mechanisms, it will manufacture low, medium or high quality CDR's or different features [e.g, resistance to break, ageing, etc].

(d) What do you think about this??? : Given we can not check the CDR ATIP info [real manufacturer, dye type, real supported speeds, etc] when purchasing CDR's and given the different 'brands' not always do a fair play, we could use again a very old 'thumb rule', i.e., to read where the CD's are manufactured. Some of one did a suggestion; for example, 'made in Japan' is a good reference in car nmanufactuting, and it seems it is true too in CDR' manufacturing, isn't it?

I dislike this kind of 'prejudgment', but we [the users] have some right to defend us...

Welcome feedback, corrections, etc, to this philosofical [may be practical] approach.
 
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LTR12101B

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Looks like you've got that down well.

Some of the old designations of Good/bad no longer apply - the old page at cdmediaworld, for insatance -
http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/cd_quality.shtml
Lists Imation as TY (good) though they are now CMC (bad)
Also RITEK are down as BAD , but have rehabilitated themselves and now (for a lot of drives) make very good media.

Drive preference is another issue, some drives just do not go well with some media, that's why it helps if you can actually measure C1/C2 errors (AND verify some, if not all burns) and stick to media that works, and maybe hold enough in stock for a year of average use.

Often cheap/rebate media ends up worth exactly what you paid for it, and maybe less.
One problem is, the push for low prices has already driven Kodak out of the market, and the way many people DO buy the cheapest spindle or cased media doesn't help.
 
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