Weird Problem.

[A-Traveller]

Hi All.

I burnt a CDR with 17 tracks to play on my audio cd player. Tracks 1 to 8 play fine, however, from track 9 onwards, the CD spins but the track does one of the following:

* Not play at all,
* Start to play after a while (could take up to a few minutes!), or
* Play fine

I was hoping it was just a glitch, so I burnt another one with different tracks and at a different burn speed, however, the results have been similar; the same thing happened for the tracks from 10 onwards.

I have run C1/C2 tests using KProbe, but the results seem OK (see attached).

I thought that there must be something wrong with the CDR/burn, so I played it another audio player and it works fine...BUT...

I also thought that there might be something wrong with the audio player, so I played a different brand CDR burnt some time ago in the same audio player and it worked fine!

This leaves me totally confused about whether the CDR/burn or the player is to blame.

Any idea as to what the problem could be...and how to fix it?

Thanks.

(Mod edit, replaced 944k BMP image with 10k PNG) - Please use PNG or GIF for screenshots, as a courtesy to those who may be on dialup

 

[VIPER_1069]

try same brand again but burn slower this may determine if its the media or not if its fine burning slower then its a good guess that its the media

altho RITEKS are good for DVD im not sure how they fair for audio !?

no doubt others will add their weight to the thread

 

[LTR12101B]

Audio players can be very fussy, especially those designed before CD-R.

With a 52327S drive, any speed above 16x will result in an increasing burn speed across the media, so it would appear that the audio player in question is not able to cope with the result of the speed increase.

What speeds did you use?

According to one review, the Ritek CD-R media handles most speeds, with the error rate remaining pretty much flat - the scan looking typical of grade A Ritek ... On a recheck, actually the BEST Ritek's can average significantly below 1, so it's actually more typical of "best of the rest" for unbranded Ritek - and it normally is Phthalocyanine (Silver/Silver).

For audio players, I would tend to favour a speed which the writer handles in CLV mode, rather than P-CAV or (rare these days, other than DVDR drives), Zone CLV - on most writers, this would be 16x or below.


I've mentioned before, my audio player, and how I found the only thing it liked was some truly VILE Fornet media, really rotten stuff, with built-in errors above about 60 min, but burnt slow (2x) - it worked brilliantly in that and any other audio systems - there's no accounting for taste!

 

[scarecrow]

The C1 spectrum is not terribly good, but not way bad either- the disk should play without major problems, so I might assume that your player doesn't like very much the dye of that Ritek disk. To my knowlwdge best dye for audioCD's is short strategy (pthalocyanine) silver and gold dye, azo which is just fine for data disks is not liked by many audio players.
The best media for audio I have ever met (by far) are Mitsui Gold, but of course there are many others which do a decent job.

 

[A-Traveller]

Thanks all.

Hmmm, I think the advice of burning at a slower speed sounds like a REAL possible solution. Hope to try that ASAP! Now that you mention it, the other CDR which worked perfectly was burnt at a much lower speed.

I didn't know that the speed with which a CDR is burned affected the ability of an audio player to play it! Thanks for that info.

By the way, my media is the Ritek RiData CDRs which have a green RiData label and silver underside (40X, 700MB). Silver-Silver.

The two burns which I did were at 40x and 32x respectively. I read in a test review for Ridata CDRs at a website that the best speed for it was 40 (or was it 48x?), so I naturally burned my first CDR at 40x. The results for the burn at 40x are better than those of the 32x burn. This raises two questions:

If C1 errors increase with the decrease in burn speed,

1. Would it be better to burn at the highest speed resulting in lower C1 errors and buy a new audio player? or

2. Would it better to to burn at a lower speed resulting in higher C1 errors and keep my old audio player?

Thanks.

 

[A-Traveller]

Hi All.

Well I burnt a CD at 4x and still the problem occurs, so it can't be anything to do with the burn speed, I guess.

I don't know if this could be the culprit but my Disc at Once option in Nero Express appears greyed out so I am unable to add/remove a check mark in the check box next to it. I am not 100% sure, but as far as I can remember, I think at the end of my burns on my older CDRs, Nero Express indicated that it was closing/finalising the disc, whereas now it doesn't. (Y'know after it says 'Lead Out' at the end of burning, I am 99% sure it used to also say that it was finalising the disc, however it doesn't do that now. Immediately after 'Lead Out', it says 'Idle' and when I click Next, the CDR is ejected.)

Any ideas why Nero Express has suddenly disabled DAO? Is there a way to check if the CDR which I have burned was finalised/closed?

Thanks.

 

[LTR12101B]

If it's 100% ok to halfway, and then breaks down, even with a constant velocity recording, then the other thing that could be a possibility, is a problem with the flatness of the CD, so that it becomes harder to track.

http://www.thedolphinreview.com/RiData48xCD-R/RiData48xCD-RPage1.html
Ridata 48x, not quite the same.

Dealing with fussy players is difficult - Princo CD-R media is often mentioned as being great with fussy car players, not sure where you can find it though.

If you want to find media that works, then you're down to looking for singles and sample packs - my local Poundland had 3 CD-R slimcase packs for - £1 ... not exactly cheap in quantity, but if it shows you a media that works....

PC World had some Imation (CMC, not great media, usually) packs with free software - it seems to vary, but there was a Roxio Photosuite 5 and a CD-R software on different packs.

Basically, unless you want to replace the player, You'll be hunting for CD-R media that it likes - and this JUNK, burned slow, just happened to work.
http://cdspeed2000.com/go.php3?link=cdrdetails.php3&n=53
Yes, that's what worked great in my fussy player - not much use if going over an hour though, it REALLY is that bad.

The other thing is it was 74 minute media, not sure if you can still get 74, but it can have a small advantage in things that were designed before CD-R

 

[A-Traveller]

Hi.

Yes, it's 100% OK up till the 8the track but after that, things go haywire.

The CD seems perfectly flat to me. Please remember that the WHOLE CD plays 100% OK in my personal CD player.

One thing which isn't a possibility is buying other discs. I bought LOTS of these Ridatas and would rather replace my audio player than buy more CDRs.

The older ones which work perfectly in my audio player were 74 min ones.

What about the Nero Express problem? Could that be it? I'm awaiting response from Nero support.

...and how could I check if my CDR has been closed?

The following appears in my Log:

9:19:46 PM #5 Text 0 File Burncd.cpp, Line 3773
Turn on Disc-At-Once, using CD-R/RW media

9:19:47 PM #10 Text 0 File ThreadedTransferInterface.cpp, Line 824
Prepare recorder LITE-ON LTR-52327S for write in cue-sheet-DAO
DAO infos:
==========
MCN:
TOCTYPE: 0x0 Session Closed, CD fixated
Tracks 1 to 22:

9:23:11 PM #35 Text 0 File Mmc.cpp, Line 15050
StartDAO : CD-Text - On

The thing is; these entries were made about 20 minutes before the end of the burn!

Thanks.

 

[LTR12101B]

It seems to be saying it's DAO, and writing the session as closed and fixated from the start.

DAO writes a closed toc at the start, then the data, then the leadout, in one sweep - why it's not giving the option - DAO is not available if you have multisession enabled, but hopefully that setting should be automatically disabled on an an audio CD.

If you look at the CD properties in Nero or Nero Infotool, it should also tell you if it's closed or not.

I see you have CD-Text set to on - I seem to have more trouble with fussy players when that is enabled - if you care to risk wasting another, try 16x (since faster burns will be starting from 16-20x and the start is ok) and turn CD-Text OFF - actually, that does stir a vague memory, that I had one that wouldn't even play in my CD-ROM, and I'd used CD-Text when I didn't normally.

Only other thing, if it's Nero 5.5.10 (Express) and it's not 5.5.10.42 or 5.5.10.56, update it to 5.5.10.56 - 42 was a peak of stability in 5.5.10, 50 had a bad bug, and 56 is current and pretty good, but I wouldn't bother updating from 5.5.10.42.


It certainly sounds like the CLASSIC "fussy player" issue - it plays other media written by the same drive, the same media written by another drive, the burns it doesn't like test well and play in other drives.

Replacing the player is a rather drastic solution, unless it's on it's last legs anyway - not sure if they make a feature of it on anything other than portables, but some can play CD-RW (unless it's given as a feature, don't expect it to) - but if a player has the CD-RW feature, it should have very good CD-R capability.

 

[A-Traveller]

Hi.

I have looked at the CDs info in Nero Express but it doesn't mention anything about the CD being closed or finalized. As for Info Tool, I don't think it even works as the blue bar doesn't get very far. How long does it normally take for Info Tool to complete its scan?

How do I turn CD-Text off in Nero Express? I have looked everywhere but don't see any options to do that. I already have the latest ...56 update.

I think there's something really weird that's happened so I'm going to re-install the software and see if that makes a difference.

"since faster burns will be starting from 16-20x and the start is ok"

Don't understand.

Thanks.

 

[Duracell]

I have looked at the CDs info in Nero Express but it doesn't mention anything about the CD being closed or finalized.

my Nero 5.5.10.56 Classic doesn't show "finalizing" in the progress bar too;
but i have the option to switch between TAO and DAO (and AMQR too ) and i'm able to select/deselect "finalize disc" even if i choose Audio CD as burning project; if TAO for Audio CDs is an option or not depends surely on the drives capabilities;

How long does it normally take for Info Tool to complete its scan?

the audio ripping speed of my Yammy is hardware limited to 4x, so it will take around 15 minutes; as above, depens on the drive;

How do I turn CD-Text off in Nero Express?

no way, switch back to Classic, choose Audio CD as burning project, deselect CD text, then burn your project; next time you can use Nero Express again and it will stay deselected;
surely you can do this by modifying an registry entry too;


Greetings from
Duracell

 

[A-Traveller]

Hi Duracell.

I have the option to switch between TAO and DAO but the check box (to finalize the disc) underneath the drop down list is greyed out so it can't be selected/deselected.

My drive is the LiteOn LTR 52327S which is more than capable and I am sure it used to allow the Finalize option before.

I originally installed Nero Express version 5.5.10.40 which came with my LiteOn and then upgraded to 5.5.10.56 later on. So when you say "switch back to classic", do you mean back to 5.5.10.40? If so, I have tried that as well but still the same.

How do I change it in registry?

Thanks.

 

[Duracell]

So when you say "switch back to classic", do you mean back to 5.5.10.40?

no, i mean simply switching the interface back to the Classic GUI; see pic beneath;
but if you got bundled the "Express only" version, so it seems you don't have that option; but IMHO Ahead have/had a special offer for buying an upgrade to full Nero 5 (Express+Classic);

How do I change it in registry?

asking such question means i have to prepare it for you;
download and extract the attached file, close Nero, double click Nero.reg, answer with yes; (note: the file is made for Win2000 and XP only)
open Nero, now Nero is configured for "DiscAtOnce", "CloseSession", "CloseDisc", "NoCDText";
as long as you don't change to TAO, it will stay with this settings; if you did change to TAO one time after it, you have to re-apply the procedure to ensure my settings;

 

[A-Traveller]

Thanks for the help Duracell.

The button to switch back is on my version also but when I click it, a window pops up with the Nero URL on it.

"note: the file is made for Win2000 and XP only"

I've got W98SE. Can't I just go into registry and make the changes manually? I would be more comfortable with that anyway.

A few observations:

It's not only from track 9/10 onwards; it's ALL tracks; the whole CD.

The WHOLE CD will play 100% perfectly without ANY problems at all. The problem is that if I go to a certain track and then press play, the stupid thing will not play most of the time, but if I just leave the tracks to play one after the other on their own, there is no problem. Ofcourse this is of no use to me, because the main purpose is so that I can skip to whichever track I like and not have to listen to the whole CD at once and in numerical order.

The feeling I get is that the stupid player is having trouble finding the beginning of a track and just spins until I smash a brick over it.

 

[A-Traveller]

Another question I have is...

As you know, the DAO option is available but the Finalize Disc check box underneath it is greyed out. The greyed out check box does have a check mark in it, even though it cannot be selected/deselected.

Does does this mean that

a) The disc is set to finalize by default, or

b) The Finalize option is not available?

Thanks.

 

[Duracell]

I've got W98SE. Can't I just go into registry and make the changes manually? I would be more comfortable with that anyway.

of course, you can do this manually; anyway i will attach the w9x version here;

The problem is that if I go to a certain track and then press play, the stupid thing will not play most of the time, but if I just leave the tracks to play one after the other on their own, there is no problem.

seems like incomatibility between the media and player (and/or burner); if you like to buy a new player, then test your problematic CDs there before buying;
will write more about when i'm back; please give me 2 days, i'm in hurry now, plane departing in 3 hours;

Does does this mean that
a) The disc is set to finalize by default, or
b) The Finalize option is not available?

a)