Long movies

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buddycat

Member
Okay, alfter a very long nightmare, I've been successfully burning DVDs for the last month or two. New question -- pretty basic.

Is there a procedure --either with lowere quality encoding -- or using a SVCD -- to record a 1 hour 52 minute movie and still be able to play on my stand alone DVD player?

Because of the capture program I have, she had to record her movie in two pieces. Once it was edited down, it was over 4 gig in info. We were trying to lower the encoding rate, but it seemed like by doing that, it not only increased the burning time, it kept trying to default to a CD burnig which can only handle 700 meg.

Since we're only trying to transfer videotapes, we just want to get equivalent quality. I thought by lowering the encoding rate, you could get up to 3 hours?
 
rebootjim

rebootjim

New member
If you encode to (S)VCD you can get up to 8 hours on a dvdr.
If your standalone player will play (S)VCD, then you can lower the bitrate until your entire project fits on one, although the quality really will be poor.
There's two ways to do what you suggest.
Lower the dvd bitrate to (S)VCD quality, roughly 2000kbps or even lower, or actually encode it to (S)VCD and burn it on cdr.
What are you using to encode?
 
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buddycat

Member
I'm using Nero, if that's what you mean. Videoh! for the capture device.

I'm getting the impression that a bit rate of about 2500 might be good enough to get VHS qualilty (since you can't improve on your source, anyway), and get more onto a disc. Now, I noticed there's a 1961 bitrate that's about three hours worth. What I can't seem to find is a breakdown of video quality where VHS to DVD is concerned.

I've heard you don't lose too much at the 3 hour level. True or not?
 
rebootjim

rebootjim

New member
VHS is approximately the same as SVCD at nominal bitrate, ~2000kbps or so, which does give you rougly 3 hours per dvdr.
That's why I suggested you do a multiple SVCD on a DVDR.
Most reasonable dvd authoring apps will allow SVCD source files, and play them with most dvd players.
You should check YOUR player for it's compatibility, first by looking at www.videohelp.com/dvdplayers and then burn a couple of test projects to a DVDRW.
 
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buddycat

Member
Okay, hen, here's what I don't get:

I have a 2 hour, 41 minute movie.

I changed the settings to Extended play. Now, the tip says this should allow for up to 240 minutes. That's 4 hours. Yet, when I choose this option, the bar showing the space available says I have 4.93 gigs of content - .55 more than is available on the disk. That doesn't sound like anything's changed. Does it have to re-analyze the media before it can encode at a slower bit rate? Otherewise, how is this any different?

Initially, when I got a prompt that the file was too big, and it offered to shrink it down, it shifted to 1691. Why didn't it go to Extended play, rather than the next one down below that?
 
VIPER_1069

VIPER_1069

1
try a compile to files to hd rather than go for the burn to disk, then you will prolly find it WILL FIT ive had this a few times its a little confusing as to why it says larger than the disk space but when compiled its less sometimes a lot less :)
 
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buddycat

Member
Interesting. So, you say that by saving to my hard drive, it'll compile it smaller? What kind of file should I save it as? What program would I need to do it with? Tight now, all I have loaded is Nervision. I took all the other programs off for a while because Nero apparently doesn't play very well with others. Or can I save it as an iso file or as a Virtual DVD (something I still don't get)? I know there are one or two things you can use Nerovision to save files to the drive as other formats.
 
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buddycat

Member
Okay, so wait. Lemme think about this. What would the procedure be? Save tothe HD at a lower bit rate, then copy it to a DVD? What is the order of that, please? Can you give me a step by step?
 
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buddycat

Member
Here's the other thing I keep forgetting: I managed to just barely get the file down to (I think) recordable size at 2000 kps. I can even make it a bit lower, if need be. But why in the world does it take as much as 14 HOURS to do a burn when the encoding rate is a lesser quality? Shouldn't it be faster?!?
 
rebootjim

rebootjim

New member
Encoding is going to take time. If you're using Nero to encode, it's going to take extremely long. Nero has a very slow encoder engine, and it's got to encode the whole file, plus any menus you've made, plus it has to re-encode the audio and resample it to 48khz.
No matter what you do with your file, Nero will insist on "transcoding" and you'll usually end up with a project that won't fit. There's just so much "overhead" needed for a dvd, and Nero is the worst at adding extra stuff, to make it compliant.
Instead of compoiling and burning, select "image recorder" from your list of recorders in Nero, and that should compile the image to your hard drive. You can then mount that image using Daemon tools, or Nero drive image, to test.
If all is well, see if it will burn, using Nero's image burning.
If it's still too big, use ISOBuster to rip the image to your drive, shrink it with DVDShrink, and then burn.
Personally, I think this is far too much work, for a questionable result, as Nero is not the most reliable encoder, and as you've found out, it's also tediously slow.
I would encode the mpeg in TMPGEnc or Mainconcept to SVCD. Get about 6 hours worth of video.
Stuff them all into DVDLab as SVCD and author it.
6 hours of SVCD quality video on one dvdr is about the same quality as your original VHS. You could encode at a higher bitrate as well, and use about 4 hours per dvdr, if quality is really an issue.
If you want to fit that 2:41 movie onto one dvdr, then the easiest way is to use a bitrate calculator www.videohelp.com/calc and it allows for audio size and overhead during the authoring process. Use tmpgenc or mainconcept to encode, then author in Nerovision Express (if you insist), as there are much better authoring tools around.
 
VIPER_1069

VIPER_1069

1
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm no transcode with nero needed if you use DVD LAB to compile the disk :)

you just need to drag the entire contents of the newly created dvd from the VIDEO_TS folder into the VIDEO_TS folder that is there as standard when using the DVD VIDEO option in NERO :)


how fast is your computer ? whats the processor speed !? i have an amd 2.2ghz and it takes about 15 - 25 mins to compile depending on how complicated ive made the menus or if the menus are animated etc :)

burntime at 4x takes approx 10-15mins depending on the size of the compilation :)
 
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buddycat

Member
Wow. Ummm, that's a lot of info.

Well, Viper, I'm a liiiitle confused by what you said, but it's intriguing. I'm assuming that the newly created DVD is you're sayig after you've put it on the HD? My PC is a 1.3 gig processor -- well, actually, I think it's a 500 or 550 nhz processor goosed by a Powerleap setup. What exactly is DVD Lab? How would I use this with my external capture device? Would I capture to MPEG first, then pull it into Nero and encode it? And then I use DVD Lab to encode? Or are yoiu saying pull the MPEG into DVD Lab and then placing it into the Nero folder?

I did manage to burn my 2:41 movie, rebootjim, but yeah, 14 hours is ridiculous. I wound up using a slightly lower standard and still got pretty good quality because it's old Doctor Who b & w stuff I taped off air. I used 704X 480 and D1 pass and 2000 kps. Just BARELY got it all on.

I think I have TMPGEnc around here someplace, although I don't know if I'm willing to stop and take the time to learn it. It looks mighty complicated, although I know there are some pretty detailed tutorials available online

The only reason I insist on using Nero is that I spent what to me is a lot of money and am really unwilling to have to spend so much more to get what I want. Actually, it mostly suits my needs for anything around an hour and a half in length, which is over half of my VHS collection. But now that I know there is something out there than can put 6 hours on SVCD and get the same quality, it's might tempting to try it out. How much does this DVD Lab cost, or is it a free utility?
 
VIPER_1069

VIPER_1069

1
you answer lies in your processor as an ex amd 500mhz processor user i can tell you its PAINFULLY SLOW on making dvd compilations with any program when you have to compile :(

only solution for this is to upgrade with a new board and processor and at least 256mb of ram .. it also helps if you use either windows 2000 or windows XP as they are better at handling NTFS file structure and less prone to crashes too :)


Tmpgenc is slower than DVD LAB when it comes to processing too :(

best investment i ever did was upgrade my board and processor :)
 
rebootjim

rebootjim

New member
Tmpgenc is slower than DVD LAB when it comes to processing too
Click to expand...
Don't confuse the issue. Tmpgenc is an encoder, tmpgenc DVD Author is akin to dvdlab (well, sorta), but DVDLab can do FAR more.

buddycat: Although tmpgenc is a tediously slow encoder, it does produce reasonable results. 14 hours is entirely respectable, on YOUR system. (Honestly, I didn't think anyone would be attempting video work on anything that slow these days). My XP2500+ can do a 2 hour movie in about 1:43 in tmpgenc, and about 1:05 in Mainconcept.
No, DVDLab is not a free utility. There is a fully functional 30 day trial at www.mediachance.com
It's arguably the best "bang-for-the-buck" authoring software there is ($100).
Fitting 2:41 onto one disk does require a low bitrate, as you've found out. There are things you can do to increase bitrate of video, maintain some quality, and get 6 hours on a disk. Here's a shortlist:
1.) Separate audio from video first, save the audio somewhere, and if possible, convert it to AC3 (or at worst, mp2). If your source file is a download, then 128kbps audio is plenty. No point in having 384kbps of noise and static from a poorly encoded avi in the first place. This will shrink the audio file a LOT, allowing more room on the disk for video.
2.) Encode video at the slowest, best quality setting (2 pass VBR), and do NOT include the audio in this process.
3.) Use a good authoring app (dvdlab) and remux (put back together) the video and audio in that, not during encoding. If audio is VBR, it can get miles out of sync during encoding, and some encoders just don't handle audio well at all.
To get the results you want, requires separate tools, that each do one job, and do it extremely well. I have 5 different audio tools, each one designed slightly different, and depending on the output I want, which tool I use.
I have 5 different encoders. I have 3 different authoring programs. The end result determines which of all these apps I use during the process, and that's just for dvdr. I have a whole bunch of other programs for (S)VCD.
There's nothing fast or simple about video work. You need patience, and time, and it really helps to have a bit of money for some software and hardware.
I would suggest, if you want to continue in this hobby, you invest in a serious computer upgrade, then download and try all sorts of different demos. Buy what you like the most.

To get back to your original question.
CDR can reasonably hold about 1 hour per disk, SVCD quality.
DVDR can hold about 6 hours of SVCD quality video per disk (8 hours VCD).
DVDR can hold about 2 hours of near dvd quality video per disk, full dvd quality requires about 1 hour per disk.
You can do this. It's difficult, but is going to require some learning. Don't expect Nerovision Express to give you good quality at the settings you want. It's just not that flexible.
I hope this doesn't sound like preaching, I'm just trying to give you some benefit of experience :D
 
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buddycat

Member
Thaks for the info, guys.

As far as upgrading is concerned, I'm pretty much out of luck, then. I can't afford another upgrade. I already upgraded my Board about 2 yeras ago, which was already mostly obsolete (long story -- int that interesting). The PowerLeap gave me a boost for a number of applications, so I can't complain there. My next step will proably be just to get a whole new computer, but that's not in the cards for at least year. I'll just limp along with what I've got for now.

The thing I still don't understand is, I can burn a disk with up to, oh, I dunno -- an hour and 45 minutes or a scoch (sp?) more of video, and it's done in 23 minutes on the standard play setting, (5976 kbs). But if I try to put on just another hour, I have to lower the bit rate, and it takes 14 hours? What's up with that? That's a huge exponential difference. LIke I've said -- Iwould think if you're lowering the quality of your video, I would think it would take LESS time, not more. :confused:
 
rebootjim

rebootjim

New member
Encoding is taking that much longer, because it must change the framesize so drastically, it's much different from the original, and you've added at least an hour of video to encode. The encoder must also decide what bits it can eliminate from the original, and still maintain some quality. If the encoder just encodes from the avi bitrate to the dvd bitrate, it has far less work to do. Take a VERY high quality avi, at about 6000kbps and encode to a much lower bitrate, the encoder has to work much harder. The combination adds up quickly at about 1:5.
It's actually faster to encode a 352x240 video to half D1 (352x480) than it is to encode the same source to SVCD (480x480). The encoder has half the work resizing each frame.
 
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buddycat

Member
WEll, the upshot is that I used Nero Recode to compile the files and that alone shrank my video down to the size I needed. Didn't have to adjust it any, and the results, for an old b & w video, were pretty good. Guess I'll be using it in future.

Thanks to all.
 
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