The technology preventing PS2 backups..?

[steve_at44]

Hello all, a new member here. I hope you don't think I am too wet behind the ears, but I have a multi format LG burner, and using DVDXcopy Platinum, have no probs whatsoever burning movies to $1.50 ($AU) DVD-Rs with perfect quality (archive only, but cuts right through the CSS protect).

I wondered why direct copies using such powerful software cannot be used in the PS2. The stock answer just seems to be "you need a mod chip" period! I sought the technological answer to this unanswered quesstion, and have found many different answers such as "Sony uses black disks which are otherwise unobtainable", "Sony burns code into the unused first track(s) which can't be duplicated", "Sony uses DVD-ROMs rather than any of the other 5 formats - -R, +R, -RW, +RW, RAM" etc etc. What I want to know is this:

1. What is the technology used by Sony on their DVDs, what type of DVDs are they, can blanks be purchased on the open market, if so where from and for how much

2. Precisely and accurately, why cannot copies be burnt using latest tech burners (such as the 4040B) and software (such as dvdXcopy plat)?

3. Why precisely are mod chips necessary?

All information will be gratefully appreciated

thank you

(actually thinking about this a little more, if the medium were identical and the burning software sufficiently powerful, then the copy would be practically a 1:1 copy and it would have to work. Hypothetically, a "thought experiment", if the copy were good down to the molecular level, then the PS2 coudln't discriminate, and the copy would certainly work. Therefore, it is either:

1. the medium cannot be duplicated (the probable cause); or

2. the software cannot be burnt identically no matter what burning software is used (don't believe this for a moment); or

3. a combination of the above.

There is nothing mystical about all this, we are talking about physical science here, not magic. I need however to have the science explained to me in a way that doesn't just throw in the red herring "you NEED a mod chip".

Thanks

[Nunyobiznes]

Your approach is all wrong. You have to look at this problem from the quantum level. Sony has many many millions of dollars they are trying to protect. We on the other hand have many many hundreds of dollars of product we are trying to protect. If you were to magnify a Sony DVD or PS2 game under an electron microscope you would find that along the outer edge of the disc they have burned a serial number. However since it is ethced using a laser that operates at the quantum level, every time the disc is read the number changes. Sony has worked out the statistically probable outcomes using a proprietary formula and has coded all of their equipment to accept only those codes on their media. Home burners are not capable of reproducing this "MICRO-CODE". Therefore you will need a mod-chip!! Your hypothesis seems to be logical however I don't believe that it will be possible for you to test your theories. I have never seen black dvd media available b4.

[steve_at44]

Your explanation seems a bit esoteric to me, what with quantum physics etc. It appears that the answer is that Sony is able to write special DVDs by using bad blocks which standard DVD burners cannot write. The bad blocks are marked as invalid on the DVD and apparently all consumer oriented DVD burners are designed to correct bad blocks when they read them before writing them to blank DVDs. Apparently, only Sony's recorders will re-write these bad blocks on their DVDs. The DVD blanks cannot be purchased. The protection scheme works as follows:

When the DVD boots up, the PS2 carries out 2 checks on the DVD, the first checking the region code, the second checking for bad blocks at
specified locations on the DVD. As (apparently) only Sony's DVD burners can produce the bad blocks, a DVD with the bad blocks will be considered by the hardware to be original. If the region code matches the code in the PS2 BIOS, and the bad blocks are where they are expected to be, the boot continues.

The mod-chip simply allows the PS2 to bypass this boot process (as I understand it) by replacing the chip inside the PSX that checks for the country code and bad block and telling the machine that both checks have been passed.

Apparently, you cannot do a raw sector read and write of bad blocks because of hardware limitations (I dont know the truth of this). The bad sectors physically cannot be written by a burner (apparently). What you end up with is good, but empty, blocks, rather than duplicate bad blocks and without the modification chip, it wont play.

However, apparently also there are more "elaborate" copying algorithms which WILL copy the bad blocks, zeroised ECC etc or whatever on a perfect 1:1 basis. I cant find any such routines anywhere. But if they exist, or can be written, and the bad blocks etc can be duplicated ( to say "perfectly duplicated" would be redundant of course), then there is no further use for modification chips and that industry is then a goner!

Does all of this above sound realistic? A bit more so perhaps than quantum well tunneling and laser tech, which exists but is probably still in the region of military use. Cheaper also...

I am certainly open to comments on this. I also wonder if perfect bad block copying algorithms are not being written or used because of the self-interest of the mod chip industry? Interesting thought i guess.

any comments??

[scarecrow]

Unless you have found a way to change the laser synchronization and the servo pace by using a hack (which would probably award you a nobel prize) plus a way to make your computer communicate with that new, exotic Jedi-type device, your theory has nil chances to apply.
Making a truck fly by adding a special spoiler sounds much more feasible.

[steve_at44]

Right. I see, Scarecrow. How about a bit less sarcasm (thought this was a knowledge base) and a bit more knowledge. The terms are impressive, but can you explain a bit more please?

We have at least progressed past the introduction of quantum theory and some sort of application of deterministic variability in the DVD blank substrate. Do you not agree that there are bad blocks burnt by the Sony factory into the glass templates? APparently, a lot of other people think this is the secret. Isn't it right? Can you advise please and clarify the terms you used in your post? I don't get any hits at all in Google for "laser synchronization" + ps2 and I don't pretend to know what you are talking about (but I do know about quantum theory, and that one just ain't right).

Help us out here, I am trying to understand how Sony has so effectively beaten the hackers and engineers of the world, and how the mod chip industry has taken such a preeminent role in hack-dom.

What do your terms mean relative to either the Sony factory burn or my little LG multi laser? All I want to know is, on an informed basis, why the Sony protection scheme works so well, and how it works - without the bull**** and hyperbole.


Thanks in advance.

[Nunyobiznes]

@steve_at44 - What is your understanding of mass dvd duplication? I have been around several media mass production facilities. The machines which create the discs also stamp the image directly to the write layer as it is still "wet". http://www.actionduplication.com/cdtour.htm. The imperfections are passed along in the stamping process, not because of special burners. No DVD's are actually burnt. The images and errors are created digitally and then turned into a 3-d mirror image using a process called Glass Mastering. http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technol...rep_master.htm will show how this is done. My previous post was in jest. Someone with your obvious ability should have detected that. That being said, I believe that what I have provided should answer your questions.

[Nunyobiznes]

Unless you have found a way to change the laser synchronization and the servo pace by using a hack (which would probably award you a nobel prize) plus a way to make your computer communicate with that new, exotic Jedi-type device, your theory has nil chances to apply.
Making a truck fly by adding a special spoiler sounds much more feasible.

Your concept is off alittle. The writing software is what needs to be re-written to allow the intetional burning of errors. If you can figure out how to do that you won the pot!!

[ps2king]

To answer ur first question Steve Sony uses DVD Roms.

2. Copies CAN be burnt using the latest burners and software, it's just that you need to know how to use the software. E.G I have nero and when I want to make a CD backup then I have to burn it in a certain way.

3. Just because you make the Backup how will you play it? Ur ps2 needs to be able to read the disc. That's where the modchip kicks in. The modchip reads the disc and then if it reads it then it boots it. When you make a backup u have to bypass the security and not every kind of software is able to do so.

This is to answer ur first few ??

And I didn't even bring physics in this

[steve_at44]

Thanks guys for all of that. You should know that the mod ification chips work by simply substituting a a boot up sequence which bypasses the part of the DVD (backup) which should, but doesn't, contain the region code and the bad blocks/sectors which have been mastered in the Sony replication process. This is not really significant knowledge here, mod chips don't of themselves explain how Sony codes the protection scheme, they just bypass it entirely and convince the PS2 that the codes exist on the backup DVD. Also, I have made what appear to be good backups (exsperimenting) using Alcohol and Primo. They don't work but that is because of the Sony protection scheme.

Back to the chase. I know now that Digital Linear Tapes are used as the input medium for glass mastering and replication in the Sony factory - I believe this is because only DLT can duplicate exactly the bad blocks/sectors which apparently are the secret to Sony's protection scheme (plus the region coding which is easy to break).

Also, importantly, have a look at

http://www.burnworld.com/dvd/primer/dvdrvsdlt.htm

which says that general DVD R media cannot handle Content Scrambling System (CSS) information. Apparently, "while it is impossible to write CSS information to a DVD-R General use disc, DVD-R for Authoring discs do have the ability to store CSS information. DVD-R General media ship with the area where the CSS information is stored pre-blocked by the manufacturer. While DVD-R Authoring discs are not blocked in this manner, the area is unconditionally prewritten with null data when a first recording session is performed on a disc by the only available DVD-R Authoring drive (Pioneer's DVR-S201)."

I wonder if this impediment (general media have pre-blocking of part of the blank) is the reason why one cannot burn 1:1 backups of PS2 games? Could this be the area where Sony places its bad sectors? If that is the case, could it be possible to perfectly duplicate the Sony DVDs by using authoring drives and media? Anyone know anything about this.

BTW, thanks Nunyobiznes for the links to the mastering/replication site.

Cheers

[Nunyobiznes]

As far as I can tell, all writing software for burning has no way to disable the process for skipping bad sectors. All are set to skip read errors or hang up when they get to errors. All the code writers have been working for years to do the opposite, which is to avoid the writing of errors. The only way to do it is to change the code of your writing software.

One question though. Are Sony PS2 discs DVD-5 or DVD-9? If they are dual layer then this whole discussion is futile.

[steve_at44]

THanks

Here is a report using cd/dvd diagnostic, for Harry Potter, dvd single layer PS2:


"The following information was collected by CD/DVD Diagnostic
Copyright 1997-2002, Arrowkey, Inc.

Table of Contents
There are a total of 1 tracks on disc, plus the lead-out.
No manufacturer information was returned by this disc.
Track 1 occupies 274925 blocks (61 Min, 5 Sec, 50 Frames).
This track contains data and is ISO-9660 format.
Lead-out track starts at block 274925.
---------------------------------------------
Data track 1 recorded as part of session 1.
This track has been recorded in XA mode.
The disc is recorded in XA mode, but this track does not have an XA-mode image.
The volume identifier is blank. This may cause problems.
Both the publisher and data preparer fields are blank. This should have somebody's name in it.
This track has an application identifier of "PLAYSTATION".
There are 17 accessible files and 2 directories contained in this track.
The directory in this track qualifies as using the ISO-9660 character set.
A properly written post-gap was found for this track.
---------------------------------------------
There are one or more conditions that make replication of this disc questionable."

The DVD won't even show as media in DVDinfo v2.20.

Is there any info here which is helpful in tracing the protection system?

Here is the volume information:

"The following information was collected by CD/DVD Diagnostic
Copyright 1997-2002, Arrowkey, Inc.

ISO-9660 data track
Volume ID:
System ID: PLAYSTATION
Volume size: 274925
System Use:
Volume set size: 1
Volume in set: 1
Block size (bytes): 2048
Path table size (bytes): 34
Path table (L): 18
Optional path table (L): 19
Path table (M): 20
Optional path table (M): 21
Root directory block: 22
Volume Set:
Publisher:
Data preparer:
Application: PLAYSTATION
Copyright file: ELECTRONIC ARTS
Abstract file:
Bibliography file:
Volume created: 10/4/2002 20:51:56
Volume modified: *** Date not set ***
Volume expires: *** Date not set ***
Volume effective: *** Date not set ***
---------------------------- Big-endian format fields -----------------
Volume size: 274925
Volume set size: 1
Volume in set: 1
Block size (bytes): 2048
Path table size (bytes): 34
Root directory block: 22"


Blocks 0-9 not accounted for, blocks 10-19 control information, blocks 20-29 files "no name"

It seems to pass the readability test ok.
There are a number of issues here, I will leave it up to the better versed to analyse the above.

bye for now